Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il Mago" Bargnani: cap. VII

Rise and fall di un giocatore che o si ama o si odia. Noi lo abbiamo amato, finchè è durata!
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Viktor »

Kakapato ha scritto:L'anno scorso i fans di DeRozzo di lamentavano che il sistema di gioco di Casey (slow pace, half-court offense) non favorisse il loro beniamino.
Oggi i Craptors girano molto più velocemente (Lowry) e la difesa è andata a farsi benedire... poi con la random offense ogni giocatore va nel teorico 1v1 (ma in pratica 1v3 perchè i compagni si muovono anche loro a "caso" e non aprono gli spazi).
:approved:

Nella maggior parte delle volte tutti e 5 i giocatori si trovano sull'arco. I lunghi a fare i blocchi e gli altri ad aspettare che il play inventi la giocata. Così, come tu stesso dici, le penetrazioni sono caratterizzate da un 1vs2 o 1vs3 imbarazzante.
"Raps traded Bargs because he would block the tank" cit.

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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da ETeLoVojoDi »

Kakapato ha scritto: L'anno scorso i fans di DeRozzo di lamentavano che il sistema di gioco di Casey (slow pace, half-court offense) non favorisse il loro beniamino.
Oggi i Craptors girano molto più velocemente (Lowry) e la difesa è andata a farsi benedire... poi con la random offense ogni giocatore va nel teorico 1v1 (ma in pratica 1v3 perchè i compagni si muovono anche loro a "caso" e non aprono gli spazi).
Non credo sia un gioco particolarmente adatto a valorizzare il tuo presunto (fu) uomo franchigia, o sbaglio?

Magari è vero anche quello che dicevano i de-rozzo fan, ma in questo caso appare ancora più evidente la scelta fatta da Colangelo e Casey, di puntare su un altro cavallo.

Partendo dal presupposto che a Colangelo interessano più i soldi che i risultati, credo che in questa prospettiva abbia ragione a puntare su DD, perchè incarna quello che i tifosi dei craptors si aspettano: ignoranza, atletismo e un bel po' di schiacciate.
E il Mago è rimasto col cerino in mano.

Oh, parliamoci chiaro, sta comunque giocando male, è innegabile.
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Kakapato »

ETeLoVojoDi ha scritto: Partendo dal presupposto che a Colangelo interessano più i soldi che i risultati, credo che in questa prospettiva abbia ragione a puntare su DD, perchè incarna quello che i tifosi dei craptors si aspettano: ignoranza, atletismo e un bel po' di schiacciate.
E il Mago è rimasto col cerino in mano.
Conoscendo ormai il modo di concepire lo sport canadese (dopo 7 anni...) si può dire fermamente che la MLSE (la proprietaria), a seguito di alcune indagini di mercato, ha ritenuto necessario ordinare quello che tu dici: non credo che nè BC nè Casey siano i responsabili (il primo è legato ad Andrea dal draft, l'altro viene dalla trionfante Dallas!!!)

Non è un segreto che questi ignoranti si esaltino per gente come Regge Evans...
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Kakapato »

Osti... che si fa ora?
John Hollinger wrote:

Andrea Bargnani is a unique player in NBA history. A 7-foot jump shooter with some ball skills and decent quickness, he's a confounding player for both good and bad. Few bigs space the floor like he does, with a quick-trigger line-drive release and a devastating show-and-go move. Still fewer have rebounded this poorly or been as genially permissive at the defensive end. And nobody, ever, has effectively used a jab step move off the wrong foot like this.

The problem is that it's not adding up the way it should, and it's been a major contributor to one of the most fascinating stories in the NBA this season: The amazing ability of the Toronto Raptors to lose in the most gut-wrenching of ways. Whether it's having a dramatic comeback fall just short (Denver), getting jobbed by the refs in the final seconds (Charlotte, arguably San Antonio), snatching defeat from the jaws of victory (too many to recount) or failing to show up at all (such as Friday's withering 131-99 smackdown in Utah), Toronto has been one of the league's biggest disappointments.

In the wake of Sunday's defeat against the Clippers, the Raps are only 4-17 at the 21-game mark, owning the league's second-worst record, this from a team that was hoping to challenge for an Eastern Conference playoff berth.

Partly, this is because they've been unlucky both in terms of schedule and fortune. The Raptors opened with 15 of their first 22 games on the road, but after Monday night's tilt in Portland the schedule turns back in their favor, with 11 of 15 games at home. The Raps have also been unfortunate in the close ones, going 2-9 in games decided by seven points or fewer.

Nonetheless, they've also been flat-out bad by any objective measure. The Torontosauruses have been outscored by 7.0 points per game -- only the ridiculous Wizards have been worse -- and sit just 27th in Monday's Power Rankings. They've lost six times by 15 points or more. They have no NBA small forwards. (OK, that last point exaggerates. A little.)

Toronto's biggest issue has been its stunning regression at the defensive end. A season ago, Raptors coach Dwane Casey got his troops -- which had been 30th the season before -- to rally all the way to 12th in defensive efficiency, despite no major personnel upgrades. Most league observers considered this feat borderline miraculous.

Toronto fans will quickly point to the fact Bargnani missed 35 games, but actually the Raps were pretty solid with him on the floor, too. Subjectively, in fact, last season was perhaps the first time in history that Bargnani looked halfway decent at that end when he was able to play.

But without Bargnani for half the season, and with a few other injuries thrown in, Toronto couldn't score, landing 25th in offensive efficiency and finishing 23-43.

The weird part is that Bargnani is back this season, playing all but one game, but his weaknesses are again outweighing his strengths. A PER of 12.80 just doesn't cut it for a big with little to no defensive value and a severe rebounding allergy, and Casey has earned criticism for leaving him in the game in crunch-time situations despite his struggles and the strong play of Ed Davis and Amir Johnson off the bench.

Bargnani is shooting only 39.9 percent overall and 32.6 percent on 3s; while these percentages are likely to improve (um, they will improve, right?), Bargnani's justification for playing time is as an uber-efficient floor-spacer who makes up for his soft defense and historically awful rebounding by knocking down shot after shot.

Instead he's been something of a Charlie Villanueva clone, and there's not a great need for that kind of player. The Raptors, alas, are paying Bargnani $10 million a season through 2014. With a crowded frontcourt, no first-round pick (most likely) and the potential for $10 million in cap space, we're at the point where the A-word comes into play next summer if things don't pick up. (That's "amnesty," for the uninitiated, which would dump the final two years of his contract so the Raptors could sign somebody else with the cap space.)

But back to the present. As a result of Bargnani's struggles, the Raptors are still a mediocre-to-bad offense (21st in efficiency) despite adding Kyle Lowry and improved production from DeMar DeRozan and Davis.

Meanwhile, the Raps are backsliding on D in a major way, ranking just 27th at this end. The reasoning here is a bit clearer: The frontcourt of Bargnani and rookie center Jonas Valanciunas has simply been eviscerated. Valanciunas is a tremendous prospect who likely will be a top-10 center in a few seasons, but right now his inexperience on defense is magnified by the fact Bargnani offers no help.

Consider that the Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt tandem has been shredded for 109.5 points per 100 possessions, according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool, while playing more than a third of the Raptors' minutes this season.

Consider further that the Davis-Johnson tandem that backs them up has allowed just 98.1 as a unit, which would lead the league in defensive efficiency. As you might expect, the Bargnani-Johnson duo (105.1) falls right in the middle. (Davis-Valanciunas does not, at 109.0, but in just 71 minutes.)

Meanwhile, Johnson and Davis have outplayed their counterparts at the other end, too. In fact they've done so by a wide margin. Johnson's 16.61 PER is completely consistent with his career output, while the 23-year-old Davis has been one of the league's most improved players in the early going at 18.95, but even his numbers from his first two seasons roughly match those of Bargnani and Valanciunas.

In other words, one wonders if the Raptors have chosen pedigree over performance. The prescription from the data is pretty clear: I really like Valanciunas, but giving him a starting gig next to an indifferent defender like Bargnani seems to be too much, too soon. Meanwhile, their loyalty to Bargnani -- a top overall pick that they signed to a generous extension -- has blinded them to Davis' superior play.

If you break down the data, Toronto should probably be starting Johnson and not forcing Valanciunas to drink out of the fire hose like this; instead, he can play his minutes with the second unit and alongside the more defensively committed Davis. Then, in crunch time, Toronto can go offense-defense by alternating Bargnani and Davis, with Johnson as the other big. (Of course, Toronto tried all these combos in the fourth quarter Sunday night and all failed miserably.)

Nonetheless, Toronto has two huge big-picture issues holding it back from building on last season's progress: Bargnani isn't producing anywhere near the level expected from him, and the defense has massively regressed -- partly, but not entirely, because of Bargnani's presence.

This also shows the danger of projecting too far ahead. Casey maxed out Toronto's defense last season, and he deserves all the credit he received for it. But if you buy that the Raptors maxed out, expecting further improvement didn't make much sense, especially with a Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt taking most of the minutes instead of the Davis-Johnson and Johnson-Johnson (Amir and James) pairings that were in effect for much of last season.

So it's not all his fault. Not even close. For now, however, Bargnani is the symbol of Toronto's deflated hope -- a lightning rod for bitter Raptors fans who now send me hopeful tweets with their trade ideas (none of which involve Bargnani staying).

But even if his output snaps back to his career norms, the big-picture takeaway doesn't change much. Bargnani is 27 and in his seventh season in the league; you've seen everything you're getting from him. It's a truly unique package, but it's a letdown that it adds up to "serviceable" rather than stardom.
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Matteo »

serpico ha scritto:Grande pathos in panchina durante l'accenno di rissa tra il Mago e Griffin.

Immagine

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
:lol: :lol: :lol: spettacolo!

Cmq pienamente d'accordo con quello detto da The Huge, il Mago si deve svegliare e pensare a giocare bene per se stesso, senza forzare, senza lasciare che le statistiche crollino...e soprattutto quando si trova la palla che gli cade tra le mani per un rimbalzo facile facile prenderlo lui quel cazzo di rimbalzo e non farselo fregare da quel nano palestrato di Lowry come ha fatto ieri... :angry_1:
MAGO SEMPER FIDELIS

CERO PER IL MAGO #5
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Stefanone »

Il 23 gennaio 2012 lo stesso Hollinger faceva notare:

Toronto has lost eight straight, and two reasons stand out: (1) lack of talent, and (2) Andrea Bargnani's injury. Here's a fun stat that I cribbed from Toronto's TV guys on Sunday while the rest of you were watching football: The Raps are 3-17 over the past two seasons when Bargnani doesn't play. He's been out the past six games with a calf strain, and the Raptors' offense has been a mess in his absence. Yesterday's 91 points against the Clippers were the most Toronto's scored without him; the Raptors are averaging just 83.2 in the six games.

Bargnani will likely return soon, perhaps as early as Tuesday in Phoenix, but with the Raps on a five-game road swing this streak may hit double digits before the bleeding stops.


Poi sappiamo tutti com'è andata avanti la storia dopo quel ritorno a Phoenix e Salt Lake City...
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da The Huge »

Che mazzata da Hollinger ... :(
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da wisconsin »

ma Andrea si e' infortunato?
Ha giocato solo 7 minuti in 3 quarti....
"Rigore e' quando arbitro fischia!" Vujadin Boskov

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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da wisconsin »

.... devo fare tutto da solo!!

Ecco qua: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1440 ... ards-elbow

In parole povere: infortunio al gomito, raggi negativi, potrebbe stare fuori un paio di partite, l'infortunio viene considerato come una possibilita' per Toronto di migliorare in difesa (ma vaff...)
"Rigore e' quando arbitro fischia!" Vujadin Boskov

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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Viktor »

wisconsin ha scritto:.... devo fare tutto da solo!!

Ecco qua: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1440 ... ards-elbow

In parole povere: infortunio al gomito, raggi negativi, potrebbe stare fuori un paio di partite, l'infortunio viene considerato come una possibilita' per Toronto di migliorare in difesa (ma vaff...)
:lol: :lol: :lol:

ma ancora non lo tradano. sto aspettando con impazienza.
"Raps traded Bargs because he would block the tank" cit.

Immagine
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da CARTMAN »

Su us today c'é scritto che nessuno lo vuole...l'unica soluzione é l'amnesty?!?!?!?! Che tristezza...
TACTA TESTICULA OMNIA MALA FUGANT N.2
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da andredici »

e allora amnesty sia !
nelle prossime si tifa toronto come mai prima
forse passando dalla max aspettativa (pickone) alla merdamassima (amnesty) si dà quella mossa che tutti aspettiamo da 7 anni. Non mi sorprenderebbe neanche un po' un mago che risorge dalle ceneri in una squadra che lo raccatta per un piatto di lenticchie. Sarebbe in perfetto stile bargnani.

tristezza ma anche speranza
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Ruchi »

Kakapato ha scritto:Osti... che si fa ora?
John Hollinger wrote:

Andrea Bargnani is a unique player in NBA history. A 7-foot jump shooter with some ball skills and decent quickness, he's a confounding player for both good and bad. Few bigs space the floor like he does, with a quick-trigger line-drive release and a devastating show-and-go move. Still fewer have rebounded this poorly or been as genially permissive at the defensive end. And nobody, ever, has effectively used a jab step move off the wrong foot like this.

The problem is that it's not adding up the way it should, and it's been a major contributor to one of the most fascinating stories in the NBA this season: The amazing ability of the Toronto Raptors to lose in the most gut-wrenching of ways. Whether it's having a dramatic comeback fall just short (Denver), getting jobbed by the refs in the final seconds (Charlotte, arguably San Antonio), snatching defeat from the jaws of victory (too many to recount) or failing to show up at all (such as Friday's withering 131-99 smackdown in Utah), Toronto has been one of the league's biggest disappointments.

In the wake of Sunday's defeat against the Clippers, the Raps are only 4-17 at the 21-game mark, owning the league's second-worst record, this from a team that was hoping to challenge for an Eastern Conference playoff berth.

Partly, this is because they've been unlucky both in terms of schedule and fortune. The Raptors opened with 15 of their first 22 games on the road, but after Monday night's tilt in Portland the schedule turns back in their favor, with 11 of 15 games at home. The Raps have also been unfortunate in the close ones, going 2-9 in games decided by seven points or fewer.

Nonetheless, they've also been flat-out bad by any objective measure. The Torontosauruses have been outscored by 7.0 points per game -- only the ridiculous Wizards have been worse -- and sit just 27th in Monday's Power Rankings. They've lost six times by 15 points or more. They have no NBA small forwards. (OK, that last point exaggerates. A little.)

Toronto's biggest issue has been its stunning regression at the defensive end. A season ago, Raptors coach Dwane Casey got his troops -- which had been 30th the season before -- to rally all the way to 12th in defensive efficiency, despite no major personnel upgrades. Most league observers considered this feat borderline miraculous.

Toronto fans will quickly point to the fact Bargnani missed 35 games, but actually the Raps were pretty solid with him on the floor, too. Subjectively, in fact, last season was perhaps the first time in history that Bargnani looked halfway decent at that end when he was able to play.

But without Bargnani for half the season, and with a few other injuries thrown in, Toronto couldn't score, landing 25th in offensive efficiency and finishing 23-43.

The weird part is that Bargnani is back this season, playing all but one game, but his weaknesses are again outweighing his strengths. A PER of 12.80 just doesn't cut it for a big with little to no defensive value and a severe rebounding allergy, and Casey has earned criticism for leaving him in the game in crunch-time situations despite his struggles and the strong play of Ed Davis and Amir Johnson off the bench.

Bargnani is shooting only 39.9 percent overall and 32.6 percent on 3s; while these percentages are likely to improve (um, they will improve, right?), Bargnani's justification for playing time is as an uber-efficient floor-spacer who makes up for his soft defense and historically awful rebounding by knocking down shot after shot.

Instead he's been something of a Charlie Villanueva clone, and there's not a great need for that kind of player. The Raptors, alas, are paying Bargnani $10 million a season through 2014. With a crowded frontcourt, no first-round pick (most likely) and the potential for $10 million in cap space, we're at the point where the A-word comes into play next summer if things don't pick up. (That's "amnesty," for the uninitiated, which would dump the final two years of his contract so the Raptors could sign somebody else with the cap space.)

But back to the present. As a result of Bargnani's struggles, the Raptors are still a mediocre-to-bad offense (21st in efficiency) despite adding Kyle Lowry and improved production from DeMar DeRozan and Davis.

Meanwhile, the Raps are backsliding on D in a major way, ranking just 27th at this end. The reasoning here is a bit clearer: The frontcourt of Bargnani and rookie center Jonas Valanciunas has simply been eviscerated. Valanciunas is a tremendous prospect who likely will be a top-10 center in a few seasons, but right now his inexperience on defense is magnified by the fact Bargnani offers no help.

Consider that the Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt tandem has been shredded for 109.5 points per 100 possessions, according to NBA.com's advanced stats tool, while playing more than a third of the Raptors' minutes this season.

Consider further that the Davis-Johnson tandem that backs them up has allowed just 98.1 as a unit, which would lead the league in defensive efficiency. As you might expect, the Bargnani-Johnson duo (105.1) falls right in the middle. (Davis-Valanciunas does not, at 109.0, but in just 71 minutes.)

Meanwhile, Johnson and Davis have outplayed their counterparts at the other end, too. In fact they've done so by a wide margin. Johnson's 16.61 PER is completely consistent with his career output, while the 23-year-old Davis has been one of the league's most improved players in the early going at 18.95, but even his numbers from his first two seasons roughly match those of Bargnani and Valanciunas.

In other words, one wonders if the Raptors have chosen pedigree over performance. The prescription from the data is pretty clear: I really like Valanciunas, but giving him a starting gig next to an indifferent defender like Bargnani seems to be too much, too soon. Meanwhile, their loyalty to Bargnani -- a top overall pick that they signed to a generous extension -- has blinded them to Davis' superior play.

If you break down the data, Toronto should probably be starting Johnson and not forcing Valanciunas to drink out of the fire hose like this; instead, he can play his minutes with the second unit and alongside the more defensively committed Davis. Then, in crunch time, Toronto can go offense-defense by alternating Bargnani and Davis, with Johnson as the other big. (Of course, Toronto tried all these combos in the fourth quarter Sunday night and all failed miserably.)

Nonetheless, Toronto has two huge big-picture issues holding it back from building on last season's progress: Bargnani isn't producing anywhere near the level expected from him, and the defense has massively regressed -- partly, but not entirely, because of Bargnani's presence.

This also shows the danger of projecting too far ahead. Casey maxed out Toronto's defense last season, and he deserves all the credit he received for it. But if you buy that the Raptors maxed out, expecting further improvement didn't make much sense, especially with a Bargnani-Valanciunas frontcourt taking most of the minutes instead of the Davis-Johnson and Johnson-Johnson (Amir and James) pairings that were in effect for much of last season.

So it's not all his fault. Not even close. For now, however, Bargnani is the symbol of Toronto's deflated hope -- a lightning rod for bitter Raptors fans who now send me hopeful tweets with their trade ideas (none of which involve Bargnani staying).

But even if his output snaps back to his career norms, the big-picture takeaway doesn't change much. Bargnani is 27 and in his seventh season in the league; you've seen everything you're getting from him. It's a truly unique package, but it's a letdown that it adds up to "serviceable" rather than stardom.
Si vabbè.

Certo che per come stà giocando ci può stare tutto, ma o qui nessuno capisce una mazza di basket, oppure come sempre certa stampa usa cifre e numeri per esprimere quello che gli pare.
Possibile che la pochezza difensiva di Toronto dipenda solo dalla scarsità difensiva di Bargnani? che Valenciunas sia uno scarso difensore solo perchè Bargnani non lo aiuta? Possibile che Amir e Davis siano la soluzione dei mali? Possibile che non si ponga mai l'accento sulla pochezza difensiva degli esterni Raps? Ricordo che con i Jazz sono stati infilati da tre da tutte le posizioni, in questo la colpa è di Bargnani?
Mi rimane impressa l'immagine di Bosh, durante un time out che non si dirige in panchina ma rimane sotto canestro con un sorriso sarcastico in volto, quasi a testimoniare il fatto che non c'era squadra, non c'era dirigenza da rispettare e soprattutto non c'era futuro a Toronto.
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da DavidatorXXX »

Infortunio al gomito. In altri tempi mi sarei strappato i capelli, ora penso che un pò di riposo non sia male...... In ogni caso questo periodo è solo transitorio: ha SEMPRE avuto un dicembre così. E per quanto ci stiamo dimenticando di quanto sia forte, tra una ventina di giorni tornerà a dimostrarlo. La cosa strana è che quest'anno abbia fatto schifo già da Novembre....
RESISTENZA BELINELLI N.3
RESISTENZA BARGNANI N.3
Matteo
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Re: Stagione 2012/2013 di Andrea "Il mago" :capitolo VII DAJ

Messaggio da Matteo »

Volevo mettere il video del MVP della serata ma non ci sono riuscito...andate a vedere come ha sbarellato Amir senza motivo! :lol:
Ultima modifica di Matteo il 11/12/2012, 9:23, modificato 2 volte in totale.
MAGO SEMPER FIDELIS

CERO PER IL MAGO #5
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